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Cobra The OG

Gang Wars Debate.

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Think it would be good to have a debate on what people thought was good/ bad about the gang wars. It's better to iron out problems and irritations now before it progresses into a problem further down the line. I think PhoenixRP really should strive to achieve a new way of doing gang wars, a unique way off doing them. This way it wont be the same old crap every other server does. 

My personal opinion on the matter is as followers;

I think it was a little bit of a shit show. I think it had a lot of potential and could've been a lot of fun for all parties all around, had it been more refined, before it came out. I think going forward there needs to be limitations on certain elements of it. To make sure all of the parties involved have a fair chance of getting the gang bases.

 

Limitations

  • 8 Maximum players per gang. Since the server is mainly dominated by smaller gangs. I think quality within the players should be pushed more rather than quantity. One gang could quite easily dominate the whole event if they had enough numbers to do so. Which is hard to contest for the smaller gangs of which makes up the majority of the gangs on the server par two. Also, I think it would offer a more competitive edge and change the dynamic of the combat involved, since losing one person, would have a bigger effect. Like a player getting red carded in the football. A team should also be limitted into defending one base at a time. So they can't block others from attacking other bases, that way both sides can attack and defend. I understand, forcing people to play in a small team is not ideal for some. However, the gangs that play day in and day out on the server, don't really have more than 8 members. We should be supporting those players, and making it fun and fair for the regular players of the server, rather than those that hop on for the combat.

 

  • There should only be one gang base per gang. I think giving one gang the potential to dominate all of the gang bases is useless. There's a lot of gangs on the server that are good in their own way. Just because of there not the best at killing someone doesn't mean they shouldn't deserve a gang base. Also if one gang does dominate that well, it pushes away the competition and becomes more of an unstoppable monopoly. It would also encourage more gangs to get involved. Knowing there's a higher chance of getting a gang base. 

 

Suggestions

  • Improve the gang base layouts. From the locations of which I saw, there was only 1 real way of slamming into the compound. Of which could have been very easily blocked off with a vehicle and was in most cases. This meant it was very difficult for a gang to actually get inside and take over the compound. Since there was a bottleneck, which was made worse by the blocking of vehicles. I think the compounds need to be more expansive, containing more entrances and building. Making is easy to attack and interesting for both parties.

 

  • There should be a way of filtering those who actually attend the event. I think a big problem with it is. that it rewards players just for combat. Not players of our server, but players from any server. The likelihood a gang on this roleplay sever is going to beat a gang on a combat server is naturally very slim.  Our sever aims to be very roleplay heavy, since its a roleplay server and it doesn't point itself towards the carbon copy combat servers out there. However, an event like this invites players of which, never really play the server, offer anything constructive to the server and don't really fit into what the server stands for. I think the event makes the server lose that sense of a free toxic community by inviting players to play here, of which just bring that attitude with them. But still those players get rewarded with in-game benefits via the gang bases, of which are gained through combat. This discourages those players that have active gangs on the server that you see all of the time, that just want to fight other gangs they see on the server. There standard of combat isnt as good as those that just hop on from other servers, Yet they get stomped on by players no ones seen before. Its pretty unfair. Once that gang dies, they just receive shit over side chat from that combat hungry gang. About how crap they are, or how easy they are to kill just general toxic remarks that aren't welcome on this server. Messages the whole server can see. It's awful. Hence why I think some form of filtering should take place. Whether that be approved gangs only, or gangs that have Teamspeak rooms and actively use them. Some way we can guarantee that the event is beneficial to Phoenix players and no one else.

 

  • A more active admin present. I think in an event like this, that warrants a lot of freedom to players regarding the rules and so on. It should be watched heavily, I know those that took part, didn't fully understand the rules. I was active as a support member at the end of the event. I received a lot of complaints about; players getting VDM'd then executed. People getting shot out of the red zone. People breaking the NLR rule that's active during the event (not the normal NLR rule). I understand they should get evidence and report it and go by that means, however, some people didn't have evidence. I think its a shame that an event like this can involve so many rules breaks just because of the combat. I just think multiple people should watch it, to ensure people are playing fairly and everything running smoothly. Not saying they weren't in this situation, however, things did slip through the net.

 

  • Use the normal NLR Rule. I think the normal NLR rule should be used. Just to give the defenders a little bit of a break in between the constant waves of players trying to take the gang bases. Also, it wouldn't differ too much from the no NLR rule that was in place, since it would take at least 10 minutes to get gear and be back in the fight. I think waiting for 15 before you can go back is fair. Its not a massive change. 

 

  • No camping of rebel outposts. I don't think people should be camped while getting gear. If players want to get gear and burn through cash fighting for a gang base. Then so be it. It'll be another way money can get drained out of the server and it stops the annoyance of buying gear, to get killed 3 seconds later by a camper. 

 

That's all I can think of for now. Sorry, the post is long. But I wanted to just voice my opinion and see what others think. Please comment below what you think about the Gang Wars. 

 

Thank you. 

 

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11 hours ago, Cobra The OG said:

8 Maximum players per gang. Since the server is mainly dominated by smaller gangs. I think quality within the players should be pushed more rather than quantity. One gang could quite easily dominate the whole event if they had enough numbers to do so. Which is hard to contest for the smaller gangs of which makes up the majority of the gangs on the server par two. Also, I think it would offer a more competitive edge and change the dynamic of the combat involved, since losing one person, would have a bigger effect. Like a player getting red carded in the football. A team should also be limitted into defending one base at a time. So they can't block others from attacking other bases, that way both sides can attack and defend. I understand, forcing people to play in a small team is not ideal for some. However, the gangs that play day in and day out on the server, don't really have more than 8 members. We should be supporting those players, and making it fun and fair for the regular players of the server, rather than those that hop on for the combat.

No, why limit gangs? It's the same as cartels. A gang with 10 people will likely dominate over a gang with 5. The same applies to gang wars. There are 3 gang bases. The only gang with the numbers to overall three where they have the numerical majority at ALL 3 would be TITAN but you had Assent with better players manage to cover all 3 locations without the majority in most cases.

11 hours ago, Cobra The OG said:

There should only be one gang base per gang. I think giving one gang the potential to dominate all of the gang bases is useless. There's a lot of gangs on the server that are good in their own way. Just because of there not the best at killing someone doesn't mean they shouldn't deserve a gang base. Also if one gang does dominate that well, it pushes away the competition and becomes more of an unstoppable monopoly. It would also encourage more gangs to get involved. Knowing there's a higher chance of getting a gang base. 

If a gang can hold all 3 and has the money why not let them try and take all? They've worked for that. The reward is they have the ability to take all 3 if they work for it but the likely hood is relatively low if other gangs also put that effort in.

11 hours ago, Cobra The OG said:

Improve the gang base layouts. From the locations of which I saw, there was only 1 real way of slamming into the compound. Of which could have been very easily blocked off with a vehicle and was in most cases. This meant it was very difficult for a gang to actually get inside and take over the compound. Since there was a bottleneck, which was made worse by the blocking of vehicles. I think the compounds need to be more expansive, containing more entrances and building. Making is easy to attack and interesting for both parties.

This one I can say there is room for improvement and suggest you make a suggestion with proposed layouts. @SKY You could also try and make some better designs.

11 hours ago, Cobra The OG said:

There should be a way of filtering those who actually attend the event. I think a big problem with it is. that it rewards players just for combat. Not players of our server, but players from any server. The likelihood a gang on this roleplay sever is going to beat a gang on a combat server is naturally very slim.  Our sever aims to be very roleplay heavy, since its a roleplay server and it doesn't point itself towards the carbon copy combat servers out there. However, an event like this invites players of which, never really play the server, offer anything constructive to the server and don't really fit into what the server stands for. I think the event makes the server lose that sense of a free toxic community by inviting players to play here, of which just bring that attitude with them. But still those players get rewarded with in-game benefits via the gang bases, of which are gained through combat. This discourages those players that have active gangs on the server that you see all of the time, that just want to fight other gangs they see on the server. There standard of combat isnt as good as those that just hop on from other servers, Yet they get stomped on by players no ones seen before. Its pretty unfair. Once that gang dies, they just receive shit over side chat from that combat hungry gang. About how crap they are, or how easy they are to kill just general toxic remarks that aren't welcome on this server. Messages the whole server can see. It's awful. Hence why I think some form of filtering should take place. Whether that be approved gangs only, or gangs that have Teamspeak rooms and actively use them. Some way we can guarantee that the event is beneficial to Phoenix players and no one else.

How do you suggest we filter them? The base bid is already £10,000,000 with increments of £1,000,000 per bid meaning you already have to have a large amount of money to have had to be a player here to have the ability to take a base. As for the toxicity in side chat, I can say getting admins to moderate it for the length of the event could work to help stop people taking an event that is for a bit of fun and making it about "shit talking".

11 hours ago, Cobra The OG said:

A more active admin present. I think in an event like this, that warrants a lot of freedom to players regarding the rules and so on. It should be watched heavily, I know those that took part, didn't fully understand the rules. I was active as a support member at the end of the event. I received a lot of complaints about; players getting VDM'd then executed. People getting shot out of the red zone. People breaking the NLR rule that's active during the event (not the normal NLR rule). I understand they should get evidence and report it and go by that means, however, some people didn't have evidence. I think its a shame that an event like this can involve so many rules breaks just because of the combat. I just think multiple people should watch it, to ensure people are playing fairly and everything running smoothly. Not saying they weren't in this situation, however, things did slip through the net.

Sure, Don't see why this can't be done.

11 hours ago, Cobra The OG said:

Use the normal NLR Rule. I think the normal NLR rule should be used. Just to give the defenders a little bit of a break in between the constant waves of players trying to take the gang bases. Also, it wouldn't differ too much from the no NLR rule that was in place, since it would take at least 10 minutes to get gear and be back in the fight. I think waiting for 15 before you can go back is fair. Its not a massive change. 

The time it takes to regear already gives enough time for people at the bases to have a break. The 5 minutes after regearing just means you'll get people grouping up just outside the redzone waiting for no real reason as they've already taken about 10 minutes to regear.

11 hours ago, Cobra The OG said:

No camping of rebel outposts. I don't think people should be camped while getting gear. If players want to get gear and burn through cash fighting for a gang base. Then so be it. It'll be another way money can get drained out of the server and it stops the annoyance of buying gear, to get killed 3 seconds later by a camper. 

I don't agree with limiting this but I believe another rebel outpost has been added for the next update which should help to mitigate this issue.

Edit:
And about any reference to the fact this is an RP server and this event goes against that: I understand the view and the majority of what we do is RP focused but having this event allows even people who like RP to have that 4 hour period where they have 3 areas of the map to just go shoot people. Helps drain money out of the economy as well, which, with the millions going around is great.

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3 minutes ago, Scarso said:

No, why limit gangs? It's the same as cartels. A gang with 10 people will likely dominate over a gang with 5. The same applies to gang wars. There are 3 gang bases. The only gang with the numbers to overall three where they have the numerical majority at ALL 3 would be TITAN but you had Assent with better players manage to cover all 3 locations without the majority in most cases.

If a gang can hold all 3 and has the money why not let them try and take all? They've worked for that. The reward is they have the ability to take all 3 if they work for it but the likely hood is relatively low if other gangs also put that effort in.

This one I can say there is room for improvement and suggest you make a suggestion with proposed layouts. @SKY You could also try and make some better designs.

How do you suggest we filter them? The base bid is already £10,000,000 with increments of £1,000,000 per bid meaning you already have to have a large amount of money to have had to be a player here to have the ability to take a base. As for the toxicity in side chat, I can say getting admins to moderate it for the length of the event could work to help stop people taking an event that is for a bit of fun and making it about "shit talking".

Sure, Don't see why this can't be done.

The time it takes to regear already gives enough time for people at the bases to have a break. The 5 minutes after regearing just means you'll get people grouping up just outside the redzone waiting for no real reason as they've already taken about 10 minutes to regear.

I don't agree with limiting this but I believe another rebel outpost has been added for the next update which should help to mitigate this issue.

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If people come up with some gang base designs that they would prefer then I have no issue putting them in.

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11 hours ago, Cobra The OG said:

8 Maximum players per gang. Since the server is mainly dominated by smaller gangs. I think quality within the players should be pushed more rather than quantity. One gang could quite easily dominate the whole event if they had enough numbers to do so.

If the small gang has so much quality im sure they must be able to beat a gang with no quality and just quantity? I see nothing wrong with the current system. In my eyes its just people that dont know how to properly push who are complaining. I can say we were only holding every gangbase with around 4 players at a time so theyre not impossible to push if you bring enough vehicles and push properly.

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With the 3 gang bases we have, it is so easy to defend. They're tiny compounds and hardly bases at all. 

You can see for miles when someone is pushing and honestly last night, not to be egotistical, but we seriously had no problems defending them at all.

I feel like the size of the bases should be mini HAVOC CP's personally.

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37 minutes ago, SKY said:

If people come up with some gang base designs that they would prefer then I have no issue putting them in.

Aren't you the one suppose to be making the designs? xD You know, as a map developer xD

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12 hours ago, Cobra The OG said:

Limitations

  • 8 Maximum players per gang. 
  • There should only be one gang base per gang.

Only two points I disagree with here.

 

8 Maximum players per gang. 

If you struggle with numbers that isn't another gangs problem. There are so many players on this server it's not exactly hard to recruit new ones to fill up numbers.

As this is a direct reference to assent, our numbers should not have been an issue. We only had around 3-4 people at each base so if a gang actually pushed one of them we would have had to retake. Not to mention, only a few of our players actually got kills. Out of the 16 only about 5 of us were getting kills anyway.

That being said I wouldn't have too much of an issue with a cap so long as its bigger than 8. 8 is nothing for attacking a base. Would need to be at least 14 since 8 isn't even 2 ifrits.

There should only be one gang base per gang.

This I don't agree with at all. If the players are good enough to dominate 3 different bases over a 10km radius then they deserve all three in my opinion.

Why should a gang be rewarded with a base when they are getting destroyed and only because the gang they are fighting can only bid on one. They simply do not deserve one.

 

12 hours ago, Cobra The OG said:

There should be a way of filtering those who actually attend the event. I think a big problem with it is. that it rewards players just for combat. Not players of our server, but players from any server. The likelihood a gang on this roleplay sever is going to beat a gang on a combat server is naturally very slim. 

 

This is the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard. I am the only person who came on to fight from another server last night and I had next to no impact on the outcome anyway as I only attended 1 fight. There was no "combat gang from another server," there was just me. 

Gangs would find it much easier to beat Assent if they actually pulled ifrits and organised a push onto the bases. Last night gangs were dopping 700m out in the water and swimming over, dropped 500m inland and trying to take it that way. It's nothing to do with gangs from other servers and all to do with people not knowing what they are doing and not knowing how to attack.

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1 hour ago, Scarso said:

No, why limit gangs? It's the same as cartels. A gang with 10 people will likely dominate over a gang with 5. The same applies to gang wars. There are 3 gang bases. The only gang with the numbers to overall three where they have the numerical majority at ALL 3 would be TITAN but you had Assent with better players manage to cover all 3 locations without the majority in most cases.

If a gang can hold all 3 and has the money why not let them try and take all? They've worked for that. The reward is they have the ability to take all 3 if they work for it but the likely hood is relatively low if other gangs also put that effort in.

How do you suggest we filter them? The base bid is already £10,000,000 with increments of £1,000,000 per bid meaning you already have to have a large amount of money to have had to be a player here to have the ability to take a base. As for the toxicity in side chat, I can say getting admins to moderate it for the length of the event could work to help stop people taking an event that is for a bit of fun and making it about "shit talking".

Edit:
And about any reference to the fact this is an RP server and this event goes against that: I understand the view and the majority of what we do is RP focused but having this event allows even people who like RP to have that 4 hour period where they have 3 areas of the map to just go shoot people. Helps drain money out of the economy as well, which, with the millions going around is great.

1

Firstly, there was only really two gangs that had a chance of getting a gang. Assent of which had about 16 players on and Titan, of which had around 12 players on I think. All other gangs have maybe 4-7 players on. I don't think its fair really that the event should only include those gangs and give them a realistic chance of getting a base and holding it for a decent duration. Numbers will always win, especially when NLR isn't active. Its like water against a rock. Eventually the rock with wither away. 

Secondly, by giving 1 gang the chance to have all 3 gang bases. It just turns into a monopoly. They don't actually need the three bases anyway, I'm not saying they can't fight at all 3 however, they can only bid on one base at a time. That way gangs that don't have as many numbers could maybe hold a compound if they flooded their members in and worked something out and actually get a base for the effort, instead of eventually getting overan and losing it again. 

Thirdly, I understand you need at least £10,000,000 bid on a base, which naturally is a large amount, however in reality that doesn't take long to get at all. Maybe about 2 hours just for one person. Let alone the entire gang. If a gang of 10 people did an orca run of meth it would get you that £10,000,000 in 12 minutes. Hardly Exclusive. 

Lastly, Im not trying to preach rp rp rp. Obviously, combat is essential and events like this should take place. I don't have a problem with the event, but more so how it rewards certain players. PhoenixRP players are not fraggers by any means, that's understood throughout the Arma community. Yet introducing a system that focuses on that, your ability to frag then to reward gangs with gang base because of this. Gang bases are the holy grail of being a gang. Yet the end game to get one is your ability to frag and not your contribution to the server, day in and day out. Gang bases should be rewarded to those that offer something to the server, not just through killing. It should be the ultimate reward for a gang that really contributes to the server and holds the servers values dear, not kill kill kill. Hence why I think limitations should happen to try and make this less of a problem. 

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1 hour ago, Lester said:

If the small gang has so much quality im sure they must be able to beat a gang with no quality and just quantity? I see nothing wrong with the current system. In my eyes its just people that dont know how to properly push who are complaining. I can say we were only holding every gangbase with around 4 players at a time so theyre not impossible to push if you bring enough vehicles and push properly.

Agreed to a point. PhoenixRP players, the ones that own the smaller gangs naturally don't have millions of hours on Arma and don't know how to push, or fight in the world of decamping wars that Arma has turned into. I'm saying, because of this, we should tailor the event to the majority of players on the server, the players that lack the combat ability, to make sure they're included. And yes, fair enough you only have 4 players holding a gang base. Which on paper sounds tiny, however, in reality, there's one entrance to a base. Of which is blocked by a vehicle. All you need to do is hold off for around 3 minutes before the ifrits role in and swamp the base and kill the attackers. Yes, they could jump out the vehicles and run in on foot, but that's just suicide, They ain't gonna go out and lockpick the vehicle either. 

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1 hour ago, LUKER said:

With the 3 gang bases we have, it is so easy to defend. They're tiny compounds and hardly bases at all. 

You can see for miles when someone is pushing and honestly last night, not to be egotistical, but we seriously had no problems defending them at all.

I feel like the size of the bases should be mini HAVOC CP's personally.

Yes. The bases are so easy to defend. Minimal tactics are used to make the bases basically impenetrable. Literally, one vehicle blocking the entrance and your laughing. And yea, you guys stomped the whole event, easily. There should be more competition involved and not one gang just stomping the whole thing every time. Lastly, I agree entirely. The Bases should be big, similar to the size of the havoc CP. Maybe 3/4 of the size.  

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28 minutes ago, AndrewFam said:

Only two points I disagree with here.

 

8 Maximum players per gang. 

If you struggle with numbers that isn't another gangs problem. There are so many players on this server it's not exactly hard to recruit new ones to fill up numbers.

As this is a direct reference to assent, our numbers should not have been an issue. We only had around 3-4 people at each base so if a gang actually pushed one of them we would have had to retake. Not to mention, only a few of our players actually got kills. Out of the 16 only about 5 of us were getting kills anyway.

That being said I wouldn't have too much of an issue with a cap so long as its bigger than 8. 8 is nothing for attacking a base. Would need to be at least 14 since 8 isn't even 2 ifrits.

There should only be one gang base per gang.

This I don't agree with at all. If the players are good enough to dominate 3 different bases over a 10km radius then they deserve all three in my opinion.

Why should a gang be rewarded with a base when they are getting destroyed and only because the gang they are fighting can only bid on one. They simply do not deserve one.

 

 

This is the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard. I am the only person who came on to fight from another server last night and I had next to no impact on the outcome anyway as I only attended 1 fight. There was no "combat gang from another server," there was just me. 

Gangs would find it much easier to beat Assent if they actually pulled ifrits and organised a push onto the bases. Last night gangs were dopping 700m out in the water and swimming over, dropped 500m inland and trying to take it that way. It's nothing to do with gangs from other servers and all to do with people not knowing what they are doing and not knowing how to attack.

I've explained above my view on the 8 numbers limit idea. Due to the combat ability of you guys, the numbers you had, and the base designs no one stood a chance. It should be an event where there's a competition. If the event turned into the face roll it was yesterday something should be done, to ensure next time around it isn't. Also maybe there should be caps on the amount defending, and attacking a base. Obviously, you would struggle to have 8 people attacking a base against 8 people defending it. Depends on the base designs really. We'll see. 

Again with your second point, I get what you're saying. If a gang is good, it's good, give them what they deserve. However, the problem I have with it is explained above. I don't think combat ability should be the be all and end all of getting a base. Would've been nice to see gangs that play as the gangs every day, like BIA, BSB , TITAN , AEX , APPA and so on fighting each other. Assent of which was a combination of TFU, HSOS and yourself just ended up destroying everyone else, those gangs aren't used to playing against you guys, since they're in there own little world and you guys are on as TFU, HSOS or other servers.  Also letting those gangs fight for a base, and not fighting against just one gang that will dominate would of been fairer and included more. 

Lastly, this wasn't a personal dig at yourself. However, if they hosted the event on another day, and it became more of a consistent thing. More and more players from combat servers would keep showing up. It would be an increasing problem since on a RP server the standard of combat doesn't match that to those who play on a combat server naturally. Finally, the last sentence you said is again, explained by the lack of combat knowledge players have on the server. That's their way of attacking. To be successful at this event requires you to play elsewhere, hence why players that play here will never be successful at this event, is my argument. So what's the point in the event? 

 

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20 minutes ago, Cobra The OG said:

Also maybe there should be caps on the amount defending, and attacking a base. Obviously, you would struggle to have 8 people attacking a base against 8 people defending it. 

I get what you are saying but that would never work, What will the rest of the gang doing while certain amounts are only allowed to defend? How would it be monitored efficiently? Would bring about problems such as when 1 person dies, he logs off and another takes his spot.

21 minutes ago, Cobra The OG said:

Again with your second point, I get what you're saying. If a gang is good, it's good, give them what they deserve. However, the problem I have with it is explained above. I don't think combat ability should be the be all and end all of getting a base.

With this system, that's how it should be. Gangs fight over bases.

24 minutes ago, Cobra The OG said:

Assent of which was a combination of TFU, HSOS and yourself just ended up destroying everyone else, those gangs aren't used to playing against you guys, since they're in there own little world and you guys are on as TFU, HSOS or other servers.  Also letting those gangs fight for a base, and not fighting against just one gang that will dominate would of been fairer and included more. 

If they dont want to fight us, that is their issue. They could have easily fought the three of us at each base. 3 v however many of them. Numbers were not an issue for any gang. They just used it as a scapegoat for being bad. If you check how many kills each member of assent got, you will probably find that 90% of our total kills were made up of me, maiko, luker, blurr. 

Also, good players want to play with good players, in every server there is one gang that dominates and that is inevitable.

GTA = TRN  or whatever they are called now.

Oympus = TI.

Asylum = Prime if they actually log on.

Reborn = Reprisal.

Here = Assent.

28 minutes ago, Cobra The OG said:

To be successful at this event requires you to play elsewhere, hence why players that play here will never be successful at this event, is my argument. So what's the point in the event? 

Doesn't at all, just requires you to be good at the game, not necessarily play other servers. I picked up a bunch of players from here when they moved to reborn and they did just fine. 

It is very unlikely that players ONLY play this server when they log onto arma 3. There are CQC koth and many more. If they only play this server and use that excuse for not being good, again, how is that our problem. 

The point is it's fun. Just people don't seem to find it as fun when they lose, however like every game you will win or lose. Be a good sport, don't get upset when you lose and try again. 

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@Cobra The OG Another way this could be done is having an actual attack and defend gang wars tournament instead. This would mean equal players, equal access to gear, equal opportunity. First, second and third get bases.

Just throwing that out there.

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46 minutes ago, AndrewFam said:

@Cobra The OG Another way this could be done is having an actual attack and defend gang wars tournament instead. This would mean equal players, equal access to gear, equal opportunity. First, second and third get bases.

Just throwing that out there.

no point we'd win that aswell smh

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32 minutes ago, bazzy :3 said:

no point we'd win that aswell smh

Well at least then there would be the possibility of second and third instead of just us ahah

Edited by AndrewFam

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